WEBVTT 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Good evening, everyone. My name is Wier Harman. 00:00:29.501 --> 00:00:32.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I'm the executive director of Town Hall Seattle. 00:00:32.367 --> 00:00:36.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And for those of you who joined us for this evening's 00:00:36.267 --> 00:00:38.133 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% earlier feature, welcome back. 00:00:38.133 --> 00:00:39.300 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% My name is Wier. 00:00:39.300 --> 00:00:42.300 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% Like I just said, sorry, sometimes I just dive in. 00:00:42.300 --> 00:00:44.100 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% On behalf of our staff at Town Hall 00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:45.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and our friends at Third Place Books, 00:00:45.601 --> 00:00:48.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% it's a pleasure to welcome you to tonight's program 00:00:48.100 --> 00:00:49.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% with Susan Linn and Nancy Pearl. 00:00:49.968 --> 00:00:53.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Susan Linn is a psychologist, an award-winning ventriloquist, 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:56.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and an expert on creative play and the impact of media 00:00:56.467 --> 00:00:58.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and commercial marketing on children. 00:00:58.801 --> 00:01:00.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% She was the founding director of Campaign 00:01:00.901 --> 00:01:04.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% for a Commercial-Free Childhood, now called Fair Play, 00:01:04.167 --> 00:01:05.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and is currently a research associate 00:01:05.901 --> 00:01:09.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% at Boston Children's Hospital and a lecturer in psychiatry 00:01:09.067 --> 00:01:10.667 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% at Harvard Medical School. 00:01:10.667 --> 00:01:12.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Susan and her work have been featured on Today, 00:01:12.767 --> 00:01:16.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Good Morning America, 60 Minutes, The Colbert Report, 00:01:16.334 --> 00:01:18.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Washington Post, Politico, Time. It's a long list, 00:01:18.767 --> 00:01:21.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and she would be mad at me if I read all of them. 00:01:21.501 --> 00:01:25.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Her previously published works include 2004's Consuming Kids, 00:01:25.234 --> 00:01:28.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which had two different print runs with separate subheads. 00:01:28.667 --> 00:01:30.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% The first was Protecting Our Children 00:01:30.334 --> 00:01:32.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% from the Onslaught of Marketing and Advertising. 00:01:32.234 --> 00:01:34.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Actually, it might have been in the second. 00:01:34.033 --> 00:01:35.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% My personal favorite, though, 00:01:35.133 --> 00:01:38.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is The Hostile Takeover of Childhood, 00:01:38.434 --> 00:01:41.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which is what it feels like. 00:01:41.467 --> 00:01:44.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Also, she's the author of 2009's The Case for Make-Believe: 00:01:44.767 --> 00:01:48.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Saving Play in a Commercialized World. 00:01:48.467 --> 00:01:50.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Not much you can say by way of introduction 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:52.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% around these parts for Susan's interlocutors, 00:01:52.167 --> 00:01:53.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% so I'll choose my favorite details. 00:01:53.901 --> 00:01:56.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Nancy Pearl is a librarian and an author, 00:01:56.667 --> 00:01:57.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% a critic -- that sounds harsh, 00:01:57.868 --> 00:02:00.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% think of her more as a book guide -- 00:02:00.367 --> 00:02:03.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and the person who back in 19, I think it was 98, 00:02:03.300 --> 00:02:05.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% had the bright idea of inviting people across our city 00:02:05.801 --> 00:02:08.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% to read the same book at the same time. 00:02:08.267 --> 00:02:09.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% The above achievements landed her, 00:02:09.667 --> 00:02:11.534 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% to my mind, the ultimate honor, 00:02:11.534 --> 00:02:14.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% her own Archie McPhee librarian action figure. 00:02:14.501 --> 00:02:17.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Susan Linn's new book, Who's Raising the Kids, 00:02:17.100 --> 00:02:18.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is the subject of their discussion tonight. 00:02:18.767 --> 00:02:22.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Please join me in welcoming Nancy Pearl and Susan Linn. 00:02:28.534 --> 00:02:38.033 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Ooh, wow. 00:02:38.033 --> 00:02:42.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Well, one thing that Wier did not say is that we're sisters. 00:02:42.834 --> 00:02:46.901 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% So I'm the little sister. 00:02:46.901 --> 00:02:48.868 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -And I'm the big sister. 00:02:48.868 --> 00:02:52.234 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Oh, wait, and one other thing. 00:02:52.234 --> 00:02:56.234 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% We did not coordinate our outfits beforehand. 00:02:56.234 --> 00:03:00.834 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% We just happened to be wearing the same top. 00:03:00.834 --> 00:03:02.567 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Not at the same time. 00:03:02.567 --> 00:03:04.267 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Right, yeah, okay. 00:03:04.267 --> 00:03:08.534 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Okay, so, let me say, Susan, 00:03:08.534 --> 00:03:10.968 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% first of all, I love the cover. -Me too. 00:03:10.968 --> 00:03:14.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -I think the cover is just absolutely wonderful. 00:03:14.033 --> 00:03:16.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% If you haven't had a chance to see the cover, 00:03:16.667 --> 00:03:20.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% it just, first of all, tells the story of the book, 00:03:20.367 --> 00:03:25.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but also kind of begs to have you open the book 00:03:25.167 --> 00:03:28.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and see how it all plays out in the book. 00:03:28.767 --> 00:03:30.200 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -In the emojis. 00:03:30.200 --> 00:03:35.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Yeah, the emojis are great. So my first question, Susan, 00:03:35.067 --> 00:03:39.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is why did you want to write this book? 00:03:39.534 --> 00:03:43.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% As Wier said, you wrote Consuming Kids, 00:03:43.501 --> 00:03:47.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and then you wrote a book about play. 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And you and I had The Case for Make-Believe, 00:03:51.534 --> 00:03:53.334 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and you and I shared a childhood 00:03:53.334 --> 00:03:55.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that was filled with make-believe. 00:03:55.334 --> 00:03:56.801 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Yeah. 00:03:56.801 --> 00:04:01.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -But then, why this particular book at this particular time? 00:04:01.701 --> 00:04:04.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -So when the New Press approached me 00:04:04.267 --> 00:04:09.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% about writing another book, they thought, 00:04:09.634 --> 00:04:12.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and I thought, that I could just update Consuming Kids. 00:04:12.567 --> 00:04:17.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But once I started thinking about it, 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:20.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I realized that what we needed was a whole new book. 00:04:20.300 --> 00:04:23.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Consuming Kids was written in 2004, 00:04:23.901 --> 00:04:27.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% before tablets, before smartphones, 00:04:27.334 --> 00:04:33.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% before Citizens United gave corporations even more power 00:04:33.400 --> 00:04:36.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% in what's happening in this country. 00:04:36.501 --> 00:04:39.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so, it had to be a new book. 00:04:39.534 --> 00:04:44.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But also, Consuming Kids was about the impact 00:04:44.868 --> 00:04:50.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% of commercialism on behaviors. It was about unhealthy eating, 00:04:50.167 --> 00:04:54.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and the sexualization of little girls. 00:04:58.734 --> 00:05:01.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But not only did the world change, I changed. 00:05:01.734 --> 00:05:08.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I'm much more interested in going deeper than that. 00:05:08.767 --> 00:05:13.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And this book, it's kind of like what anthropologists 00:05:13.334 --> 00:05:18.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% call deep culture, which is not the culture, 00:05:18.400 --> 00:05:22.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but what makes us decide to do the things that we do. 00:05:22.234 --> 00:05:26.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So this book is about the impact of big tech 00:05:26.300 --> 00:05:29.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and big business on children's values, 00:05:29.234 --> 00:05:32.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% their learning, and their relationships. 00:05:32.934 --> 00:05:40.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So it goes, I think, deeper than Consuming Kids did. 00:05:40.734 --> 00:05:46.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -You start every chapter with an anecdote from your life, 00:05:46.200 --> 00:05:53.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% your experiences of working with kids in various situations. 00:05:53.434 --> 00:05:57.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Why did you choose to do that? 00:06:01.501 --> 00:06:04.133 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -I've spent my whole life, 00:06:04.133 --> 00:06:08.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% my whole professional life thinking about children 00:06:08.300 --> 00:06:13.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and working with and for on behalf of children. 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:22.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I think the best way to help people 00:06:22.901 --> 00:06:30.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% sort of get the complexity of childhood is through stories. 00:06:30.501 --> 00:06:35.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so, I wanted to share those 00:06:35.300 --> 00:06:41.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and the ones that really moved me the most. 00:06:41.968 --> 00:06:45.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Can you give an example of what was one of your favorites? 00:06:45.267 --> 00:06:54.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Yeah, my cousin, Ellen, was taking care of me. 00:06:54.133 --> 00:07:02.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -My cousin, as well. I believe it's our cousin. 00:07:02.434 --> 00:07:04.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -As I was saying, my cousin, Ellen. 00:07:09.100 --> 00:07:10.701 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% My cousin, Ellen. 00:07:14.701 --> 00:07:17.467 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% Now I forgot what she did. 00:07:17.467 --> 00:07:18.601 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -She has a daughter. 00:07:18.601 --> 00:07:22.367 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -No, she doesn't. She has a son. 00:07:22.367 --> 00:07:23.968 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Oh, a son, right. 00:07:28.701 --> 00:07:31.701 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% Oh, that's right, it's your cousin, Ellen, right? 00:07:31.701 --> 00:07:35.467 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% Okay, my cousin, Ellen, was taking care 00:07:35.467 --> 00:07:38.701 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% of her 14-month-old granddaughter. 00:07:38.701 --> 00:07:40.400 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And she sent me a video. 00:07:40.400 --> 00:07:45.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And it was technically a terrible video, 00:07:45.734 --> 00:07:46.934 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% I just want to say. 00:07:46.934 --> 00:07:51.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But I watched it, it was like seconds long, 00:07:51.033 --> 00:07:56.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and it just blew me away, this video. 00:07:56.234 --> 00:08:00.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And what it was, was her granddaughter 00:08:00.234 --> 00:08:02.567 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% was 14 months, Arielle, 00:08:02.567 --> 00:08:05.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and she was sitting on a blanket, 00:08:05.334 --> 00:08:09.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% playing with what are now considered 00:08:09.033 --> 00:08:12.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% very old-fashioned retro and boring toys. 00:08:12.634 --> 00:08:15.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, she had an old baby doll and a bear, 00:08:15.901 --> 00:08:19.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and there was silence in the room. 00:08:19.567 --> 00:08:21.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So she was safe, my cousin was there, 00:08:21.901 --> 00:08:29.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but Arielle had a chance to be herself, basically. 00:08:29.300 --> 00:08:33.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so she was doing what babies do. 00:08:33.801 --> 00:08:39.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% She was mouthing the arm of the baby doll with one hand, 00:08:39.934 --> 00:08:43.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and her other hand was kind of just exploring the doll. 00:08:43.534 --> 00:08:46.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And she got to the doll's toes, and she felt them. 00:08:46.734 --> 00:08:53.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And you could just see her mind thinking perturbances. 00:08:53.501 --> 00:08:56.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% You know, I mean, so she felt them. 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I know she wasn't really thinking perturbances, 00:08:59.701 --> 00:09:01.167 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% but she felt them. 00:09:01.167 --> 00:09:05.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And she reached her hand up to her ear, 00:09:05.634 --> 00:09:10.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and then something wasn't right. 00:09:10.467 --> 00:09:14.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so her hand kind of wandered up the doll, 00:09:14.133 --> 00:09:18.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and she got to the doll's ear, and she traced the doll's ear, 00:09:18.334 --> 00:09:20.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and then she traced her own ear. 00:09:20.767 --> 00:09:25.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And then she traced the ear again, 00:09:25.133 --> 00:09:27.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and she traced both of her ears, 00:09:27.834 --> 00:09:32.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and she did it one more time, traced an ear, traced her ear, 00:09:32.868 --> 00:09:34.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and then she just went on to something else. 00:09:34.901 --> 00:09:38.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I still get chills when I even think about it. 00:09:38.634 --> 00:09:43.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% It was just an incredible example of human learning, 00:09:43.667 --> 00:09:48.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and how babies learn if they're given the time, 00:09:48.501 --> 00:09:54.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% the opportunity, the silence, and the safety to do that. 00:09:54.501 --> 00:09:59.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% She got the idea of somehow that her body 00:09:59.067 --> 00:10:01.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% was like that sculpture of, 00:10:01.100 --> 00:10:03.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% you know, which is what a doll really is. 00:10:05.667 --> 00:10:10.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And it was her curiosity. Nobody was telling her to do it. 00:10:10.534 --> 00:10:12.567 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% There wasn't an app saying, 00:10:12.567 --> 00:10:16.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% you know, now put your hand on the doll. 00:10:16.367 --> 00:10:20.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% It all came from her. She had a thought. 00:10:20.400 --> 00:10:22.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% There was something she wondered about, 00:10:22.934 --> 00:10:25.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and she decided to explore it, 00:10:25.334 --> 00:10:28.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and she had the chance to do that and to finish it. 00:10:28.067 --> 00:10:32.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And that was just astonishing to me. 00:10:32.534 --> 00:10:34.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Not because Arielle -- I mean, 00:10:34.868 --> 00:10:37.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Arielle, you know, she's related to us. 00:10:37.734 --> 00:10:40.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% She's brilliant and, you know, all of that stuff. 00:10:40.300 --> 00:10:42.501 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% But that isn't what it is. 00:10:42.501 --> 00:10:47.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% It's any neurotypical child could do that 00:10:47.467 --> 00:10:49.200 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% if they have the opportunity. 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And what this, you know, commercialized, 00:10:52.267 --> 00:10:56.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% digitized culture does is deprive kids 00:10:56.100 --> 00:11:02.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% of opportunities to explore, to learn who they are, 00:11:02.467 --> 00:11:07.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and to satisfy their own curiosity. 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So that was, I mean, that's a long story, 00:11:10.367 --> 00:11:13.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but it is probably one of the ones 00:11:13.100 --> 00:11:16.400 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% that really moved me the most. 00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:21.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And that's, you know, the opposite of my experience 00:11:21.501 --> 00:11:23.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% at a daycare center, the toddler room, 00:11:23.734 --> 00:11:26.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which was just filled with all of these toys 00:11:26.501 --> 00:11:27.868 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% that moved on their own, 00:11:27.868 --> 00:11:31.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and they talked, and they made noise. 00:11:31.501 --> 00:11:34.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And the room, it was so noisy in that room, 00:11:34.567 --> 00:11:37.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and the kids were just sitting there. 00:11:37.434 --> 00:11:40.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And, I mean, you couldn't walk without tripping over a toy 00:11:40.501 --> 00:11:42.868 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% that suddenly began to sing. 00:11:42.868 --> 00:11:46.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And the kids were in just total silence. 00:11:46.167 --> 00:11:47.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, they weren't doing anything. 00:11:47.634 --> 00:11:56.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So I mean, and that's a class issue as well. 00:11:56.267 --> 00:12:04.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, you know, Arielle was being taken care of alone, 00:12:04.567 --> 00:12:08.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% by her grandmother, one child, one adult. 00:12:08.267 --> 00:12:10.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% You know, the kids were in a daycare center, 00:12:10.634 --> 00:12:14.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% you know, that was filled with toys that were donated. 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:18.434 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And, you know, so anyway, 00:12:18.434 --> 00:12:22.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that really moved me a lot, that discrepancy. 00:12:22.267 --> 00:12:26.033 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -And one of the things that I think runs through, 00:12:26.033 --> 00:12:28.734 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% that's inescapable when you're reading the book 00:12:28.734 --> 00:12:35.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is this sense of how much difference class 00:12:35.033 --> 00:12:40.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% makes and can make in the lives of children. 00:12:40.934 --> 00:12:42.434 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Right. 00:12:42.434 --> 00:12:46.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, we like to think that families have complete control, 00:12:46.734 --> 00:12:49.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% or families, and parents like to believe that, 00:12:49.334 --> 00:12:53.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% in a way, they have complete control over their children. 00:12:53.234 --> 00:12:59.901 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% But children are vulnerable to all sorts of societal ills, 00:12:59.901 --> 00:13:02.567 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% you know, as well as the benefits of society. 00:13:02.567 --> 00:13:06.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so low-income kids, kids from low-income families, 00:13:06.834 --> 00:13:14.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% spend, I think it's two hours a day more with screens. 00:13:14.634 --> 00:13:19.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And, you know, if your parents are, 00:13:19.834 --> 00:13:23.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% you know, working serial jobs, if they're unemployed, 00:13:23.767 --> 00:13:28.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% if they're stressed, you know, these single parents, 00:13:28.100 --> 00:13:31.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% these screens are just so seductive 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% because they can occupy your child 00:13:34.167 --> 00:13:42.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% for hours and hours and hours. So yeah, it is a class issue. 00:13:42.367 --> 00:13:44.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -One of the things that you did 00:13:44.400 --> 00:13:47.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% when you were working on the book was immerse yourself 00:13:47.868 --> 00:13:54.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% in these multi-player online games, like Prodigy. 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:57.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Could you talk about your experience with that? 00:13:57.634 --> 00:14:00.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Yeah. I mean, the difference is, in your mind, 00:14:00.701 --> 00:14:07.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% between a game like Minesweeper and a world like Prodigy. 00:14:07.701 --> 00:14:08.534 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Minesweeper? 00:14:08.534 --> 00:14:10.033 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Minesweeper. 00:14:10.033 --> 00:14:11.734 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -You mean the old Atari one? 00:14:11.734 --> 00:14:12.868 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Yeah. 00:14:12.868 --> 00:14:15.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Well, no, you talked about that. 00:14:15.367 --> 00:14:18.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% You can see we did not rehearse this. 00:14:18.334 --> 00:14:21.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Never mind. Talk about your experience with Prodigy. 00:14:21.100 --> 00:14:22.367 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% Forget Minesweeper. 00:14:22.367 --> 00:14:25.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Are you thinking of Minecraft? 00:14:25.334 --> 00:14:27.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Oh, maybe I'm thinking of Minecraft. 00:14:29.701 --> 00:14:34.300 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Okay, all right. 00:14:38.767 --> 00:14:42.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So in order to write about the games, 00:14:42.300 --> 00:14:46.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I really felt that I needed to play them, 00:14:46.767 --> 00:14:52.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% or at least be with kids who were playing with them. 00:14:52.033 --> 00:14:57.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so I did do that. But I was talking to a reporter 00:14:57.734 --> 00:15:01.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% who had called me about something else. 00:15:01.434 --> 00:15:03.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And just as I was starting to write the book, 00:15:03.434 --> 00:15:06.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and so I said, well, can I ask you some questions? 00:15:06.100 --> 00:15:09.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Because he had a child, I know he told me. 00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:16.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I said, have you had any experiences with commercialism 00:15:16.167 --> 00:15:17.767 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and the new technologies? 00:15:17.767 --> 00:15:19.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% He said, well, do you know anything about Prodigy? 00:15:19.934 --> 00:15:22.300 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And I didn't. 00:15:22.300 --> 00:15:27.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But Prodigy is marketed as a math game for kids. 00:15:27.834 --> 00:15:33.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And that it's supposed to be a way to get kids to love math. 00:15:33.367 --> 00:15:36.801 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% But basically, what it is, 00:15:36.801 --> 00:15:43.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is like a combination of Fortnite and Minecraft. 00:15:46.067 --> 00:15:52.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% It is where the kids get to pick an avatar, 00:15:52.434 --> 00:15:55.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and they get to dress their avatar. 00:15:55.133 --> 00:15:58.400 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And then they battle wizards. 00:15:58.400 --> 00:16:01.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So it's also kind of like Harry Potter as well. 00:16:01.267 --> 00:16:04.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, they just took from all of these things 00:16:04.534 --> 00:16:06.334 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% that are popular with kids, 00:16:06.334 --> 00:16:07.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and they stuck them in this game. 00:16:07.767 --> 00:16:11.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so they can fight. And they have cute little pets, 00:16:11.934 --> 00:16:14.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% so it's also kind of like Pokemon. 00:16:17.467 --> 00:16:23.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And then if they win a battle, or if -- 00:16:23.033 --> 00:16:26.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% the battle that they fight, actually, 00:16:26.033 --> 00:16:28.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is they have to do a math problem. 00:16:28.434 --> 00:16:32.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But what I noticed is that the math could just be lifted out, 00:16:32.868 --> 00:16:34.767 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% and anything could have been put in there. 00:16:34.767 --> 00:16:38.934 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% It really has nothing to do with really understanding math. 00:16:38.934 --> 00:16:41.000 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% I mean, there are lots of math games 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.767 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% that could be really useful and fun for kids, 00:16:43.767 --> 00:16:46.634 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% but this had nothing to do with math. 00:16:46.634 --> 00:16:51.734 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% And then it was filled with prompts to get your parents 00:16:51.734 --> 00:16:56.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% to upgrade to a premium version of this game. 00:16:56.934 --> 00:17:00.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And this is a game that was being marketed 00:17:00.067 --> 00:17:02.534 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% as free to schools. 00:17:02.534 --> 00:17:07.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so the teachers would tell parents, 00:17:07.501 --> 00:17:09.000 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% this is a great game to play, 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:12.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% or they would allow kids to play in class. 00:17:12.367 --> 00:17:17.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And eventually, it became a multiplayer game 00:17:17.968 --> 00:17:20.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% where you could see other people playing, 00:17:20.801 --> 00:17:26.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and you could see which kids had the money to upgrade. 00:17:26.968 --> 00:17:29.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Because those were the kids that had better costumes, 00:17:29.801 --> 00:17:33.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% or they got to fly instead of walking along in the dirt, 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% or trudging along in the dirt, and things like that. 00:17:36.367 --> 00:17:38.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So it had nothing to do with math. 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% It was all about upgrading, I think, 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:43.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% the idea of doing that in school 00:17:43.701 --> 00:17:47.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and pressuring parents to upgrade 00:17:47.367 --> 00:17:50.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% because it's supposed to be good for teaching math. 00:17:50.934 --> 00:17:56.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, it is just really terribly unjust, I think. 00:17:56.167 --> 00:17:59.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Insidious. -Yes, insidious. 00:17:59.934 --> 00:18:04.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And these games, they're called freemiums. 00:18:04.334 --> 00:18:05.901 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% So they start out free, 00:18:05.901 --> 00:18:10.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% except you can't do the really fun stuff unless you pay for it. 00:18:10.834 --> 00:18:15.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And then the kids are kind of left there. 00:18:15.300 --> 00:18:17.567 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% They can't play the fun things. 00:18:17.567 --> 00:18:23.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% They don't get the best prizes, because you have to upgrade. 00:18:23.267 --> 00:18:24.601 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% You have to pay. 00:18:24.601 --> 00:18:27.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I think that it's important to remember that -- 00:18:29.667 --> 00:18:33.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, it's not that I'm anti-technology. 00:18:33.434 --> 00:18:35.434 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% I mean, I worked in television, 00:18:35.434 --> 00:18:42.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and I tweet and post and do all that stuff. 00:18:42.968 --> 00:18:45.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And it's not that I'm anti-technology, 00:18:45.868 --> 00:18:52.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but the business model for making money, 00:18:52.100 --> 00:18:55.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% this competition that the tech companies 00:18:55.868 --> 00:18:58.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% are in for our attention at any cost, 00:18:58.701 --> 00:19:01.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and our children's attention at any cost, 00:19:01.901 --> 00:19:04.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and the idea that they make these games 00:19:04.634 --> 00:19:08.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% specifically designed to be addictive, 00:19:08.968 --> 00:19:11.167 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% I mean, that's terrible, 00:19:11.167 --> 00:19:15.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and it's really bad for children. 00:19:15.267 --> 00:19:22.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -What about those digital helpers like Siri and Alexa? 00:19:22.267 --> 00:19:28.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I know people who just, I mean, they just abuse Siri. 00:19:28.801 --> 00:19:31.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Oh my God, they abuse Siri? -Yeah, they do. 00:19:31.801 --> 00:19:33.901 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Alexa -- like shut up, Alexa. 00:19:33.901 --> 00:19:36.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, they just are awful to it. 00:19:36.067 --> 00:19:39.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But I mean, how do you feel about using those? 00:19:39.634 --> 00:19:42.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Basically, as somebody said, frankly, my dear, 00:19:42.734 --> 00:19:45.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I don't give a damn about how Alexa feels. 00:19:45.534 --> 00:19:46.901 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Oh, I do. 00:19:46.901 --> 00:19:48.000 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -I don't, Nancy. 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -I do. -I know. I'm sorry. 00:19:50.567 --> 00:19:52.400 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Yeah. 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:56.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Well, Alexa is not real, Nancy. 00:19:56.667 --> 00:19:58.734 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -No. 00:19:58.734 --> 00:20:03.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -I mean, Alexa is not a person, and neither is Siri. 00:20:03.367 --> 00:20:04.801 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Right. 00:20:04.801 --> 00:20:06.400 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Do you understand that? 00:20:08.834 --> 00:20:11.300 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Yes, doctor. I do. 00:20:13.367 --> 00:20:17.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Yeah, I mean, it's funny about the personal assistants 00:20:17.434 --> 00:20:19.567 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% because actually, 00:20:19.567 --> 00:20:22.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I'm increasingly concerned about those. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, there's a lot of stuff about video games 00:20:25.100 --> 00:20:27.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and all the apps and things like that. 00:20:27.667 --> 00:20:31.467 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% But the personal assistants are 00:20:31.467 --> 00:20:35.434 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% increasingly troubling to me. 00:20:35.434 --> 00:20:41.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I bought -- because I wanted to write about Alexa for kids, 00:20:41.167 --> 00:20:45.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I bought an Amazon Echo Dot for kids. 00:20:45.300 --> 00:20:49.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I think it's the fourth or fifth edition. 00:20:49.601 --> 00:20:54.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I have to say, it is cute as hell. 00:20:54.534 --> 00:20:59.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% You know, we're wired to just respond to cuteness. 00:20:59.534 --> 00:21:03.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, it's this little darling tiger face, 00:21:03.067 --> 00:21:07.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and I unpacked it and honestly went, aw. 00:21:07.968 --> 00:21:12.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But it is Amazon's way of getting to kids. 00:21:12.300 --> 00:21:19.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And it has a feature where you can say, I'm bored. 00:21:19.701 --> 00:21:22.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Well, that in itself is a little problematic 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% because boredom is actually useful for children. 00:21:25.868 --> 00:21:28.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, it's how they invent things to do 00:21:28.501 --> 00:21:29.767 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and that kind of thing. 00:21:29.767 --> 00:21:31.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But anyway, you can say, I'm bored. 00:21:31.801 --> 00:21:34.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So I pretended that I was a young child. 00:21:34.033 --> 00:21:35.767 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And I said, Alexa, I'm bored. 00:21:35.767 --> 00:21:39.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And Alexa said, would you like to play a game? 00:21:39.367 --> 00:21:41.834 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And I said, yes. 00:21:41.834 --> 00:21:48.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so Alexa asked if I wanted to play a Barbie game. 00:21:48.167 --> 00:21:50.434 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And I said, no. 00:21:50.434 --> 00:21:53.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% It asked me if I wanted to play a SpongeBob SquarePants game. 00:21:53.534 --> 00:21:55.601 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And I said, no. 00:21:55.601 --> 00:21:59.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% It asked me if I wanted to play a Wizarding World game, 00:21:59.701 --> 00:22:01.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which is the Harry Potter franchise. 00:22:01.968 --> 00:22:04.534 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And I said, no. 00:22:04.534 --> 00:22:09.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And it asked me if I wanted to play 00:22:09.434 --> 00:22:12.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% with an American Girl named something or another. 00:22:12.834 --> 00:22:15.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I'd never heard of her, but she was an American Girl doll. 00:22:15.300 --> 00:22:16.634 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And I said, no. 00:22:16.634 --> 00:22:22.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And then Alexa stopped offering me any alternatives. 00:22:22.133 --> 00:22:26.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So Amazon claims that Alexa for kids is commercial free, 00:22:26.901 --> 00:22:30.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% except every single game that they offered me 00:22:30.267 --> 00:22:32.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% was basically a commercial for their game. 00:22:32.968 --> 00:22:36.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So I had Alexa sitting on my kitchen table. 00:22:36.434 --> 00:22:39.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I was writing the book in my bedroom upstairs. 00:22:39.267 --> 00:22:42.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I don't know, a few weeks later, 00:22:42.133 --> 00:22:46.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I was working on a book, on a chapter in the book, 00:22:46.834 --> 00:22:48.467 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% which is called Bias for Sale, 00:22:48.467 --> 00:22:53.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which is about the racism embedded in commercial culture 00:22:53.334 --> 00:22:55.467 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and commercialized culture. 00:22:55.467 --> 00:23:00.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I thought about Amazon. And I thought, wow. 00:23:00.634 --> 00:23:04.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I had read Sophia Nobel's book, Algorithms of Oppression. 00:23:04.968 --> 00:23:06.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I don't know if any of you read that, 00:23:06.734 --> 00:23:11.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but it's this amazing book about the racism 00:23:11.467 --> 00:23:13.067 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% embedded in search engines. 00:23:13.067 --> 00:23:18.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And what she did is type Black girls into Google Search 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:19.601 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and get pornography, 00:23:19.601 --> 00:23:22.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which is not what she got when she typed White girls. 00:23:22.567 --> 00:23:24.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% That's what started her journey. 00:23:24.100 --> 00:23:28.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So I thought, I'm going to just see what happens. 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:29.133 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% So I went downstairs. 00:23:29.133 --> 00:23:31.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And you have to ask Alexa for a question. 00:23:31.801 --> 00:23:35.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So I said, Alexa, what are African-American girls? 00:23:35.467 --> 00:23:38.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And Alexa said, African-American girls 00:23:38.701 --> 00:23:44.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% are the fastest growing portion of the juvenile justice system. 00:23:44.834 --> 00:23:46.534 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -And you have this on tape. 00:23:46.534 --> 00:23:50.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -And I have this. Yeah, I got my phone. 00:23:50.033 --> 00:23:52.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, I kept asking it over and over again, 00:23:52.834 --> 00:23:55.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% because I couldn't believe my ears. 00:23:55.634 --> 00:24:00.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So then I said, Alexa, what are African-American boys? 00:24:00.834 --> 00:24:03.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Oh, and by the way, it gave a source, 00:24:03.968 --> 00:24:07.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which makes it, according to -- actually what it said was, 00:24:07.734 --> 00:24:11.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% according to Georgetown Edu, E-D-U. 00:24:11.968 --> 00:24:17.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So then I said, Alexa, what are African-American boys? 00:24:17.567 --> 00:24:19.033 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And it was a little garbled. 00:24:19.033 --> 00:24:23.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But basically, it said, and I also have this on video. 00:24:23.067 --> 00:24:28.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% It said, there were boys, and they were African-American. 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:33.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And many of them were struggling with reading and learning. 00:24:33.334 --> 00:24:37.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So Alexa just told the child I was pretending to be 00:24:37.501 --> 00:24:42.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that African-American children are bad and stupid. 00:24:42.701 --> 00:24:46.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And the thing about this is that this was happening 00:24:46.501 --> 00:24:52.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% just as the whole book banning thing was starting to emerge, 00:24:52.634 --> 00:24:56.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and teachers were being silent, and all these list of things 00:24:56.934 --> 00:25:00.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that teachers in certain states can't teach. 00:25:00.601 --> 00:25:06.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And teachers are being censored. Librarians are being censored. 00:25:06.100 --> 00:25:10.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Information is being withheld from children. 00:25:10.734 --> 00:25:15.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But a child can ask Alexa anything, 00:25:15.968 --> 00:25:19.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and there is no regulation at all 00:25:19.234 --> 00:25:22.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% about what Alexa can say to that child. 00:25:22.701 --> 00:25:24.033 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% Which, I mean, is just -- 00:25:24.033 --> 00:25:29.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, what kind of society is it that allows that? 00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:32.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -So this was not an easy book to write. 00:25:32.634 --> 00:25:36.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Oh, you noticed that. It's those daily phone calls. 00:25:36.334 --> 00:25:39.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -I can't do this. I can't do this. 00:25:39.701 --> 00:25:47.000 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% But what made it so difficult? 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:52.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Was it the subject that you were sort of immersing yourself in? 00:25:52.667 --> 00:25:54.801 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -I mean, I was used to -- 00:25:54.801 --> 00:25:56.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, I've been immersing myself 00:25:56.701 --> 00:26:01.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% in the commercialization of children's lives since 2000. 00:26:01.267 --> 00:26:07.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So it wasn't so much that. Some of it was the technology. 00:26:07.968 --> 00:26:11.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -And you felt that you had to understand that, 00:26:11.767 --> 00:26:14.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% you had to ramp up to get it. 00:26:14.300 --> 00:26:20.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Yeah. And so I think one of the things 00:26:20.033 --> 00:26:22.033 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% I talk about in the book, 00:26:22.033 --> 00:26:25.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% for those of us who are not science and math people, 00:26:25.701 --> 00:26:28.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% the technology really kind of just seems like magic. 00:26:28.467 --> 00:26:30.601 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And we know it's not magic. 00:26:30.601 --> 00:26:37.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But trying to understand that, that was a big challenge for me. 00:26:37.601 --> 00:26:39.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And one of the things I have in the book 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:42.000 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% is the definition of terms 00:26:44.267 --> 00:26:46.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that I think will be useful for people 00:26:46.167 --> 00:26:50.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% who aren't so familiar with the new technologies. 00:26:50.567 --> 00:26:52.634 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% So that was really hard. 00:26:52.634 --> 00:26:58.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And the challenge that I set for myself, 00:26:58.434 --> 00:27:00.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which is to write about relationships, 00:27:00.634 --> 00:27:05.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% learning, and values, that was a big challenge. 00:27:05.767 --> 00:27:13.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so trying to find ways to make that readable 00:27:13.300 --> 00:27:15.868 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and interesting to people, 00:27:15.868 --> 00:27:19.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and also to be telling the truth about those things, 00:27:19.501 --> 00:27:22.868 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% that was a big challenge. 00:27:22.868 --> 00:27:26.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And thank you for all your support. 00:27:26.634 --> 00:27:28.801 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% I can't do this. 00:27:28.801 --> 00:27:37.133 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -What about the arrangement of the chapters of the book? 00:27:37.133 --> 00:27:40.234 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% I assume you didn't write them in that order. 00:27:40.234 --> 00:27:43.267 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% But you had to come up with a way of ordering them 00:27:43.267 --> 00:27:50.501 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% in the book that would follow, have an internal logic. Or not. 00:27:50.501 --> 00:27:52.601 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Do they have an internal logic? 00:27:52.601 --> 00:27:56.267 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Well, I'm... 00:27:56.267 --> 00:27:58.400 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Yes, they do. You were supposed to say yes. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:27:59.767 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% Yes, they absolutely do. 00:27:59.767 --> 00:28:01.601 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Yes, they absolutely do. 00:28:06.501 --> 00:28:07.934 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% Essentially, there are -- 00:28:07.934 --> 00:28:17.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, it starts out, I think, with a note to the reader, 00:28:17.567 --> 00:28:22.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which was -- I was writing this book when the pandemic hit. 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:28.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I thought that I would just be able to be isolated 00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:29.467 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and just write the book. 00:28:29.467 --> 00:28:32.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And instead I just felt like what I was writing about 00:28:32.567 --> 00:28:33.734 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% wasn't really relevant. 00:28:33.734 --> 00:28:35.133 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Yeah, right. 00:28:35.133 --> 00:28:37.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Except then it turned out it was absolutely relevant, 00:28:37.667 --> 00:28:43.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% because the techniques that the government at the time 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.133 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% was using to talk about COVID 00:28:46.133 --> 00:28:48.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% were all marketing techniques, basically. 00:28:51.667 --> 00:28:56.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And then I did big picture things, 00:28:56.434 --> 00:28:58.701 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% like what children really need 00:28:58.701 --> 00:29:00.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and why corporations can't give it to them, 00:29:00.901 --> 00:29:07.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and about nagging, and the corporate -- 00:29:07.300 --> 00:29:12.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% the ways that corporations want children to nag their parents 00:29:12.300 --> 00:29:14.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and get them to nag their parents, 00:29:14.467 --> 00:29:16.968 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and how disruptive they are. 00:29:16.968 --> 00:29:20.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And the way that branding has taken over everything. 00:29:20.868 --> 00:29:25.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So I was buying all these books, like You 00:29:25.334 --> 00:29:32.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Are the Brand, and Brand This, and all that kind of thing. 00:29:32.567 --> 00:29:37.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And the branded presidency that we had. 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:40.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so I started out with a big picture. 00:29:40.334 --> 00:29:43.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% That has an internal logic to me, anyway. 00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:50.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And then I had two chapters about relationships, 00:29:50.067 --> 00:29:57.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and two chapters about values, and two chapters about learning. 00:29:57.434 --> 00:29:59.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Well, one of the most important chapters, I think, 00:29:59.868 --> 00:30:06.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% in the book is the chapter that gives advice or help 00:30:06.667 --> 00:30:11.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% or support to parents who want to know what to do. 00:30:11.300 --> 00:30:14.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, here's this situation that you describe, 00:30:14.934 --> 00:30:20.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that we all live with, and what can parents do. 00:30:20.334 --> 00:30:22.868 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Right. Yeah. 00:30:22.868 --> 00:30:29.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% First of all, people ask me what my goal was in writing the book. 00:30:29.601 --> 00:30:36.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But one thing my goal was not, was to make parents feel guilty. 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:39.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, to have parents feel guilty that they're not coping 00:30:39.734 --> 00:30:44.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% perfectly with this tech-induced commercialism 00:30:44.767 --> 00:30:47.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that is bombarding their children. 00:30:47.267 --> 00:30:48.501 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% That wasn't my purpose. 00:30:48.501 --> 00:30:50.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And of course, parents have a role to play. 00:30:50.634 --> 00:30:55.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But it's really important to me that people understand 00:30:55.501 --> 00:30:59.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that this is a societal problem. It's a problem for society, 00:30:59.267 --> 00:31:02.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and it needs to be fixed by society. 00:31:02.367 --> 00:31:05.968 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And that not only that, 00:31:05.968 --> 00:31:11.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that the digitized, overly commercialized culture 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that so many kids wake up to every day is toxic, 00:31:14.934 --> 00:31:17.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% not just to children and families, 00:31:17.601 --> 00:31:21.334 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% but really to all of society. 00:31:21.334 --> 00:31:23.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And that there are things that we can do about it. 00:31:26.567 --> 00:31:30.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So I am going to answer your question. 00:31:30.267 --> 00:31:33.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But I think that I have a chapter 00:31:33.434 --> 00:31:37.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% about the importance of activism, 00:31:37.767 --> 00:31:42.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and I do profile some activists in that chapter. 00:31:42.100 --> 00:31:44.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I talk about how far we've actually come. 00:31:44.634 --> 00:31:48.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, there are actually bipartisan bills 00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:50.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that got out of committee in the Senate, 00:31:50.701 --> 00:31:54.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and may or may not be heard by the Senate this session. 00:31:54.801 --> 00:31:56.267 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% I hope they are. 00:31:56.267 --> 00:32:00.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But that would go a long way to -- they're not perfect, 00:32:00.567 --> 00:32:02.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but they would help protect kids 00:32:02.801 --> 00:32:07.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% from manipulation by tech companies. 00:32:07.033 --> 00:32:09.534 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% But social change takes time, 00:32:09.534 --> 00:32:13.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and so there is a chapter for parents. 00:32:13.734 --> 00:32:15.934 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And one of the things is that 00:32:15.934 --> 00:32:19.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% whatever you're doing in your family around technology, 00:32:19.601 --> 00:32:22.367 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% try doing less. 00:32:22.367 --> 00:32:24.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% You don't have to cut it out altogether 00:32:24.567 --> 00:32:29.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% if that's too hard for you. Do less. 00:32:29.734 --> 00:32:34.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And one of the things that I recommend is wear a dumb watch 00:32:34.534 --> 00:32:37.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% instead of a smart watch when you're with your kids. 00:32:37.534 --> 00:32:41.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Because one of the things that research is showing, 00:32:41.968 --> 00:32:46.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that when parents are involved in a screen 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:51.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% or involved particularly with their phones, 00:32:51.667 --> 00:32:55.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% they don't even register their kids 00:32:55.133 --> 00:32:57.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% calling them like at a playground. 00:32:57.501 --> 00:32:59.200 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% They don't register it as much. 00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:02.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And when they do respond, they respond with anger. 00:33:02.601 --> 00:33:04.200 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And that works both ways. 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, kids immersed in technology or kids 00:33:07.667 --> 00:33:13.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% immersed not just in screens but in tech toys, 00:33:13.501 --> 00:33:15.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% they don't respond when their parents call them, 00:33:15.834 --> 00:33:19.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and they are more irritable as well. 00:33:19.300 --> 00:33:23.734 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% Try having tech-free meals. 00:33:23.734 --> 00:33:29.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Everybody, put your phones away and have a tech-free meal. 00:33:29.100 --> 00:33:31.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Some families carve out one night 00:33:31.367 --> 00:33:34.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% a week where there's no technology. 00:33:34.701 --> 00:33:39.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And the amount that we're on our screens, 00:33:39.634 --> 00:33:43.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, we are our children's first teachers, 00:33:43.133 --> 00:33:45.100 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and they model what we do. 00:33:45.100 --> 00:33:49.033 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And so the amount of technology 00:33:49.033 --> 00:33:51.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that we use influences their kids. 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.167 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And I'm not talking about work. 00:33:54.167 --> 00:33:57.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, if you have to work online, you have to work online. 00:33:57.767 --> 00:34:03.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I'm talking about checking social media, 00:34:03.868 --> 00:34:07.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% all that, scrolling, and that kind of thing. 00:34:07.067 --> 00:34:11.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I found when I got my smartphone, 00:34:11.534 --> 00:34:13.000 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% I stopped wearing a watch 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:15.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% because I didn't need it because I had my phone. 00:34:15.834 --> 00:34:19.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But I noticed that every time I picked up a phone 00:34:19.067 --> 00:34:23.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% to see what time it is, I did other things. 00:34:23.801 --> 00:34:26.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I checked my email. I did whatever. 00:34:26.601 --> 00:34:31.133 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% And the idea that they thought 00:34:31.133 --> 00:34:35.701 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% of putting everything in this one device is so brilliant 00:34:35.701 --> 00:34:40.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and so diabolical. And so I went back. 00:34:40.434 --> 00:34:42.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I dug my watch out, and I wear a watch. 00:34:42.901 --> 00:34:47.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I really do think that when you're with kids, 00:34:47.767 --> 00:34:51.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% one easy thing you could do is not wear a smartwatch. 00:34:54.267 --> 00:35:01.534 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -What do you want readers to take away from this book? 00:35:01.534 --> 00:35:04.534 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Yeah. 00:35:04.534 --> 00:35:12.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Well, I think it's kind of what I said, that the digitized, 00:35:12.234 --> 00:35:16.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% out of control commercialism that kids wake up to every day 00:35:16.901 --> 00:35:19.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is toxic. It's toxic. 00:35:19.667 --> 00:35:23.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And it's not just toxic for kids and families. 00:35:23.701 --> 00:35:31.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% It's toxic for all of society. And this is a societal issue, 00:35:31.901 --> 00:35:34.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and we have to deal with it that way. 00:35:34.367 --> 00:35:40.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% We have to accept responsibility for the well-being of children, 00:35:40.834 --> 00:35:43.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% not just in this country, but in the world. 00:35:43.767 --> 00:35:48.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And one problem, I think, is that we think of parents 00:35:48.634 --> 00:35:54.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% as owning their children. So if a child's having trouble, 00:35:54.767 --> 00:36:00.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% it only matters with the family or within that family. 00:36:00.100 --> 00:36:02.167 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% But that's not true. 00:36:02.167 --> 00:36:04.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, we all benefit from healthy, 00:36:04.968 --> 00:36:09.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% functioning, curious, creative kids. 00:36:09.067 --> 00:36:12.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% The whole world benefits from that. 00:36:12.234 --> 00:36:14.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Let's see if there's any questions. 00:36:18.100 --> 00:36:24.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Otherwise, I will go on talking, asking questions. 00:36:24.167 --> 00:36:27.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Okay, here comes the microphone. 00:36:38.667 --> 00:36:40.634 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Hi. 00:36:40.634 --> 00:36:46.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So I had a question kind of on the positive side of technology. 00:36:46.200 --> 00:36:49.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Or I guess I'll say I remember fondly myself 00:36:49.901 --> 00:36:53.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% getting a computer, an Apple II, when I was seven years old, 00:36:53.634 --> 00:36:57.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and playing games like Think Quest 00:36:57.467 --> 00:36:59.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego. 00:36:59.834 --> 00:37:05.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I fondly remember and look back on drawing 00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:06.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and learning how to draw on my computer 00:37:06.968 --> 00:37:10.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and just a lot of very positive kind of learning activities. 00:37:10.868 --> 00:37:13.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so that was a time before these things 00:37:13.868 --> 00:37:16.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% were so commercialized and there wasn't upselling 00:37:16.434 --> 00:37:19.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% to paid versions of things and so forth. 00:37:19.534 --> 00:37:21.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But I just wondered if you had any thoughts 00:37:21.200 --> 00:37:25.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% on other positive things that parents or people can do 00:37:25.067 --> 00:37:31.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% with respect to technology in kids given this environment. 00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:34.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -And I do also want to say again, 00:37:34.434 --> 00:37:39.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I'm not anti-technology. And I see the benefits of it. 00:37:39.434 --> 00:37:43.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And in fact, going back, I mean, television seems so quaint. 00:37:43.567 --> 00:37:48.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But television had a profoundly positive influence on my life. 00:37:48.234 --> 00:37:51.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I became a ventriloquist because of television. 00:37:51.601 --> 00:37:54.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, our parents moved their lips 00:37:54.467 --> 00:37:57.501 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% when they talked and stuff. 00:37:57.501 --> 00:38:02.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And of course, there are positive things 00:38:02.067 --> 00:38:06.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that kids can do with technology. 00:38:06.634 --> 00:38:09.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, I think the whole idea of building robots is really -- 00:38:09.868 --> 00:38:14.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that's interesting to me, that kids can do that. 00:38:14.067 --> 00:38:20.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Any program that allows kids to create -- 00:38:20.667 --> 00:38:22.267 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% really, really create, 00:38:22.267 --> 00:38:25.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% to draw on their own or make music 00:38:25.934 --> 00:38:28.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% on their own that's not telling them what to do, 00:38:28.634 --> 00:38:33.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that can be really beneficial. And yes, the games are fun. 00:38:33.968 --> 00:38:41.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% My problem is not with the technology 00:38:41.067 --> 00:38:45.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% except to acknowledge how incredibly powerful it is. 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:48.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% My problem is with the business model. 00:38:48.667 --> 00:38:56.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And that I don't think it's good for children 00:38:56.434 --> 00:39:01.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% to spend most of their time with people 00:39:01.701 --> 00:39:05.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% whose sole interest in them is financial. 00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:06.467 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And that's basically, 00:39:06.467 --> 00:39:09.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% when kids are spending a lot of time with tech, 00:39:09.701 --> 00:39:12.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that's basically what they're doing. 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Yes, they're not with the actual people, 00:39:14.501 --> 00:39:20.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but they're with the products that those people have designed. 00:39:20.067 --> 00:39:25.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I think that the people that children spend 00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.534 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% most of their time with, 00:39:27.534 --> 00:39:29.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% it's in the best interest of everybody 00:39:29.667 --> 00:39:31.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% if those people's primary interest 00:39:31.834 --> 00:39:36.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is the well-being of children. And so what we're doing, 00:39:36.367 --> 00:39:37.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and we have this whole thing in this country 00:39:37.968 --> 00:39:43.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% about don't talk to strangers and fears of strangers. 00:39:43.100 --> 00:39:46.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But we're allowing kids to spend hours and hours 00:39:46.133 --> 00:39:50.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and hours a day with complete strangers 00:39:50.267 --> 00:39:52.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% who really don't care about them. 00:39:54.601 --> 00:39:55.901 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% That's my concern. 00:39:55.901 --> 00:40:00.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I don't think kids should be exploited financially. 00:40:00.834 --> 00:40:05.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I don't think that their vulnerabilities 00:40:05.801 --> 00:40:09.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% should be exploited. And the thing about -- 00:40:09.868 --> 00:40:12.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, television was problematic enough. 00:40:12.834 --> 00:40:14.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, as I said, I wrote Consuming Kids 00:40:14.968 --> 00:40:17.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% before smartphones, before tablets. 00:40:19.801 --> 00:40:22.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But the other thing that's happening in this country 00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:24.901 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% is the surveillance. 00:40:24.901 --> 00:40:29.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And kids are surveilled now all the time when they play. 00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:30.701 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And when kids play, 00:40:30.701 --> 00:40:35.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, that's the window into their hearts and minds. 00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:39.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so we have these tech companies 00:40:39.968 --> 00:40:43.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% knowing an enormous amount about our children 00:40:43.200 --> 00:40:47.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and what moves them and what they're afraid of 00:40:47.467 --> 00:40:51.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and what grabs them and then exploiting that for profit. 00:40:51.767 --> 00:40:55.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% That's my problem with big tech. 00:40:59.334 --> 00:41:01.000 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Other questions? 00:41:03.100 --> 00:41:05.968 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -How would you summarize -- 00:41:05.968 --> 00:41:08.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% just to sum up the whole book now, 00:41:08.067 --> 00:41:12.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% how would you summarize what you think is lost, 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% either individually or as a society, 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:21.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% when commercialized technology has so much access to children? 00:41:23.601 --> 00:41:30.534 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Habits and values and behaviors are formed in childhood. 00:41:30.534 --> 00:41:33.300 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% I mean, they can be changed 00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:35.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% with different experiences as you grow, 00:41:35.501 --> 00:41:43.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but a lot of who we are comes from our childhood experiences. 00:41:43.334 --> 00:41:48.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And commercialism doesn't just sell products. 00:41:48.734 --> 00:41:51.300 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% It sells values and behaviors. 00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:56.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And the primary value that is being sold to kids, 00:41:56.100 --> 00:42:01.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and us, but it's being sold to kids, is materialism 00:42:01.267 --> 00:42:04.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and that the things we buy will make us happy. 00:42:04.434 --> 00:42:07.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And in fact, the things we buy may make us happy 00:42:07.901 --> 00:42:09.133 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% for a little while, 00:42:09.133 --> 00:42:12.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but it's not any kind of sustained happiness. 00:42:12.067 --> 00:42:17.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% What makes us happy are relationships and experiences. 00:42:17.100 --> 00:42:23.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so yet, our kids are constantly being told 00:42:23.901 --> 00:42:27.000 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% that they need stuff. 00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And that hurts not just children, 00:42:30.734 --> 00:42:33.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% because kids with more materialistic values 00:42:33.834 --> 00:42:35.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% are less happy, it turns out, 00:42:35.300 --> 00:42:37.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% than kids with less materialistic values. 00:42:37.801 --> 00:42:43.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But we're in the middle of this global warming crisis. 00:42:43.467 --> 00:42:50.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And we're selling kids on acquiring all sorts of stuff 00:42:50.434 --> 00:42:54.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% when the manufacturer of that stuff 00:42:54.634 --> 00:42:57.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is really destroying the planet. 00:42:57.200 --> 00:43:02.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I mean, I don't know if any of you are familiar 00:43:02.100 --> 00:43:04.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% with what are called L.O.L dolls. 00:43:07.133 --> 00:43:10.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% They're plastic. They come -- 00:43:10.067 --> 00:43:13.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% basically, it's like seven layers of plastic 00:43:13.100 --> 00:43:19.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that you unwrap to get to the little doll in the middle. 00:43:19.567 --> 00:43:21.767 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% They're hugely popular. 00:43:21.767 --> 00:43:26.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And just as children around the world 00:43:26.334 --> 00:43:30.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% were doing the very first protest about the environment, 00:43:30.267 --> 00:43:32.033 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% the American Toy Association 00:43:32.033 --> 00:43:36.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% named these L.O.L dolls the toy of the year. 00:43:36.701 --> 00:43:41.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And if we want the planet to survive, 00:43:41.667 --> 00:43:48.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% we can't be teaching kids that having things or materialism 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.334 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% is the most important thing, 00:43:50.334 --> 00:43:55.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that they are defined by what they buy or what they own. 00:43:55.601 --> 00:43:58.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Does that answer your question? 00:43:58.400 --> 00:43:59.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Sure. I think there was one more. 00:43:59.968 --> 00:44:02.000 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% Yeah. 00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:03.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -So I know you mentioned earlier 00:44:03.601 --> 00:44:05.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% that this is an important thing, 00:44:05.567 --> 00:44:09.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% not just from a US perspective, but a global perspective. 00:44:09.601 --> 00:44:12.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Did you take a lens when you were looking at this 00:44:12.100 --> 00:44:14.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% of what this looks like in other cultures 00:44:14.200 --> 00:44:15.501 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% or in other societies, 00:44:15.501 --> 00:44:17.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% or was it mostly focused in the US? 00:44:17.734 --> 00:44:22.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -It's mostly focused on the US, but I did. 00:44:22.601 --> 00:44:26.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I did look at what's going on in other countries. 00:44:26.334 --> 00:44:32.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And one thing that's hopeful is Britain, 00:44:32.267 --> 00:44:36.334 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% a couple, maybe a year ago, maybe a little more than that, 00:44:36.334 --> 00:44:40.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% passed -- this isn't the name of it, 00:44:40.234 --> 00:44:44.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but it's something like a child-friendly design code law, 00:44:44.367 --> 00:44:48.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which says that people creating websites, 00:44:48.534 --> 00:44:51.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% if there's a chance that a child may be using it, 00:44:51.767 --> 00:44:55.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% have to take the well-being of children into account. 00:44:55.367 --> 00:45:00.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And that they can't use the same kind of techniques, 00:45:00.501 --> 00:45:05.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% like the variable rewards and the kind of techniques 00:45:05.501 --> 00:45:07.968 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% that keep kids on all the time. 00:45:07.968 --> 00:45:11.634 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% They have to take the well-being of children into account. 00:45:11.634 --> 00:45:16.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But I also looked at nagging in other countries 00:45:16.934 --> 00:45:22.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and how in the United States, my colleagues and I took 00:45:22.100 --> 00:45:25.000 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% on what's called the nag factor 00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:27.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% in the United States in the early 2000s. 00:45:27.701 --> 00:45:30.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And so you don't see it so blatantly 00:45:30.901 --> 00:45:35.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% in advertising literature in the United States. 00:45:35.300 --> 00:45:38.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But in other countries, like India, for instance, 00:45:38.868 --> 00:45:41.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% basically they talk about just right out there, 00:45:41.801 --> 00:45:48.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% you need to get the children to nag their parents, 00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:51.100 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% and that kind of thing. 00:45:51.100 --> 00:45:58.200 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I think certainly in developed countries, 00:45:58.200 --> 00:46:00.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% the commercialism is obviously -- 00:46:00.267 --> 00:46:05.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% it's more pervasive than it is in other countries. 00:46:08.033 --> 00:46:12.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Any last questions before we finish up? 00:46:12.033 --> 00:46:13.634 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -One more. 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:18.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -I just wondered, my sister-in-law 00:46:18.767 --> 00:46:22.367 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% didn't come with me, and she has a one and a half year old. 00:46:22.367 --> 00:46:25.334 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% And I just wondered, 00:46:25.334 --> 00:46:29.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% do you think this book is directed more at school age? 00:46:29.767 --> 00:46:32.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% But actually, from your story at the beginning, 00:46:32.067 --> 00:46:35.667 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% which I was really moved by, you were talking about babies. 00:46:35.667 --> 00:46:41.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So what age is the book mostly about? 00:46:41.467 --> 00:46:47.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -It's mostly about young children, school-age kids, 00:46:47.167 --> 00:46:52.067 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but there's a lot in it about babies. 00:46:52.067 --> 00:46:57.033 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% One story that I tell 00:46:57.033 --> 00:47:01.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is I was walking through a park near my house, 00:47:01.534 --> 00:47:04.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and there was a mother sitting on a bench 00:47:04.767 --> 00:47:08.267 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and a toddler lugging an enormous branch. 00:47:08.267 --> 00:47:12.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And the mother is looking at her phone, 00:47:12.734 --> 00:47:14.501 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and the toddler is pulling this branch. 00:47:14.501 --> 00:47:18.834 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And he goes, mom, mom. And she goes, uh-huh, uh-huh. 00:47:18.834 --> 00:47:22.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And he gets closer, and he goes, mom, mom. 00:47:22.934 --> 00:47:25.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And she goes, uh-huh, looking at her phone. 00:47:25.701 --> 00:47:27.100 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% He gets right up in front of her. 00:47:27.100 --> 00:47:30.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% He goes, mom, mom. She's staring at her phone. 00:47:30.133 --> 00:47:36.133 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% She says, uh-huh. And so he slugged her. 00:47:36.133 --> 00:47:38.701 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% I don't believe in corporal punishment 00:47:38.701 --> 00:47:40.367 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% for parents or children, 00:47:40.367 --> 00:47:43.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% but I have to say my sympathies were with the toddler. 00:47:43.968 --> 00:47:46.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% There's a lot about young children in this book. 00:47:49.200 --> 00:47:56.567 align:middle line:00% position:50% size:90% -Susan, to finish up, one of the questions -- 00:47:56.567 --> 00:47:58.167 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% in the chapter Making a Difference for 00:47:58.167 --> 00:48:03.767 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Everybody's Kids, you answered the question. 00:48:03.767 --> 00:48:06.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% You know, somebody says, well, I get what you're against, 00:48:06.467 --> 00:48:08.400 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% but what are you for? 00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:12.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% And I wondered if you could read that, 00:48:12.567 --> 00:48:19.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% because I think that's just a wonderful, wonderful paragraph. 00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:21.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Thank you. -So meaningful. 00:48:21.734 --> 00:48:23.501 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Do you see it? 00:48:23.501 --> 00:48:28.400 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% -Yeah. So I do get this a lot, actually. 00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:30.434 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Well, I get what you're against, but what are you for? 00:48:30.434 --> 00:48:33.868 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% So here's my answer. I am for a world 00:48:33.868 --> 00:48:38.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% where children are universally valued for who they are, 00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:41.300 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% not for what they or their parents can buy. 00:48:41.300 --> 00:48:43.467 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Where family and community values 00:48:43.467 --> 00:48:45.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% no longer compete with commercial values 00:48:45.734 --> 00:48:48.567 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% for precedents in children's lives. 00:48:48.567 --> 00:48:52.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Where kids have lots of in the real world time 00:48:52.934 --> 00:48:54.200 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% with their friends 00:48:54.200 --> 00:48:56.801 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and with the adults who love and care for them. 00:48:56.801 --> 00:48:59.901 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Where their friendships can flourish without interference 00:48:59.901 --> 00:49:04.601 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% from and monetization by tech and media companies. 00:49:04.601 --> 00:49:06.334 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% Where tech and media programming 00:49:06.334 --> 00:49:10.934 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% is designed to enrich children's lives, not corporate coffers. 00:49:10.934 --> 00:49:15.534 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Where their experience of nature is actual and unbranded, 00:49:15.534 --> 00:49:19.000 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% where opportunities for wonder abound. 00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:24.234 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% Where what and how kids are taught in school promotes 00:49:24.234 --> 00:49:28.033 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% learning, critical thinking, 00:49:28.033 --> 00:49:31.968 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and democratic citizenship, not consumerism, 00:49:31.968 --> 00:49:35.734 align:middle line:87% position:50% size:90% and not unthinking brand loyalty. 00:49:35.734 --> 00:49:36.968 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Susan, thank you. 00:49:36.968 --> 00:49:39.033 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Thank you. 00:49:39.033 --> 00:49:40.567 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -[Indistinct] 00:49:40.567 --> 00:49:42.067 align:middle line:93% position:50% size:90% -Thank you.